Volume 54 Number 06
Produced: Tue Feb 13 5:20:55 EST 2007
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Personal Prayers
[Shoshana L. Boublil]
Talking in Shul (4)
[Akiva Miller, Carl Singer, Martin Stern, Gershon Dubin]
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From: Shoshana L. Boublil <toramada@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2007 10:13:36 +0200
Subject: Personal Prayers
As an Orthodox Jewish mother, it has pained me to see that the focus of
discussions of personal prayers, or personal requests has been solely
discussed within the format of the 3 set prayers of Shacharit, Mincha
and Arvit.
While everyone knows about the section in Elokai Netzor and other
sections where many Siddurim note that one can add personal prayers, the
truth is that this is not the only venue.
Much has been said about how much we learn from Channa and her prayer.
The first thing is that we should check her venue -- she was not praying
at the regular time. This added to the Kohen, Eli's, confusion as to
what she was doing there (nothing new under the sun...).
But actually, when discussing this issue with my mother-in-law (for
example), she talks about praying to Hashem, talking to Him and asking
help -- all day long.
As she cooks, she prays that the food will be good, and healthy and help her
family....
As she cleans she prays for their health...
As she does laundry, she prays for their success and health...
and so on, throughout the day.
Perhaps, not only women, but men as well need this kind of prayer,
besides the regular set times, as part of Shiviti Hashem LeNegdi Tamid.
I recall a discussion several years ago with a young yeshiva student.
He had behaved badly in a social context and I asked him if he didn't
realize that to gain Teshuva on Yom Kippur, he would have to find the
woman he had insulted and ask her forgiveness. His reply was "we don't
think that way". I asked about Shiviti - his answer was: This is the
first time that I have ever heard a discussion of Shiviti as a guide for
daily life and behavior.
Perhaps, in continuation of the email on forcing children into modes of
living that don't suit them, we should realize that acting by rote may
be important, but living a Torah life requires more than that.
Personal prayer is an easy thing to teach. It does not come instead of
regular prayers, but it can add enormously to our lives.
Shoshana L. Boublil
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From: Akiva Miller <kennethgmiller@...>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2007 13:11:59 GMT
Subject: Re: Talking in Shul
Russell J Hendel wrote:
> I would argue that since the synagogue is our home with God a
> distinguished guest we have a right to talk in it provided we are
> respectful.
I would agree with that, but I fear that Dr. Hendel and I have VASTLY
different views about how to satisfy his condition that "we are
respectful".
He wrote
> The way I understand it it is prohibited to talk FROM the prayers
> Baruch Sheamar till after the completion of the recitation of the 18
> blessings (and similarly during the Musaf prayer) ANY OTHER TIME IT IS
> PERMITTED (except during the reading of the Torah and Haftorah).
I've heard many people say this same thing, but I think that it is not
accurate. What the above actually means is that if a person talks
between Baruch Sheamar and the end of the Amidah, he has made a
forbidden interruption during a blessing or betwen blessings. Before
Baruch Sheamar, and after the Amidah -- for example, during Yekum Purkan
or during Alenu -- this prohibition doesn't apply.
But that doesn't mean that there aren't OTHER prohibitions to
consider!!!
For example, once a person has finished his own Amidah, can he begin
talking to others? Certainly not! It is very bothersome and
disrespectful to the other people who are still saying their prayers. A
person is not yet done with his prayer, and hears a distinct buzz
throughout the room. This distracts him from his own prayer, by accusing
him of taking too long. (After all, if he would be davening faster, the
shul could've been up to kedusha already!) But this subdued buzz is a
relatively minor problem, compared to the people who will carry on an
audible conversation only five or ten feet away from the davener. How am
I expected to concentrate on my prayer when I can hear an interesting
conversation right in front of me?
> After Musaf on Saturday we traditionally sing AYN CAYLOKAYNU, ALAYNU,
> ANIM ZEMIROTH, and ADON OLAM. My own opinion is that these songs were
> introduced because people were packing up after davening and they
> provide background music which give a proper mood of praise to God
> while people are leaving. I dont advocate not saying them. ... But I
> think it an appropriate time to do socialization... including asking
> people how they are doing, inviting them over, getting tips and
> contacts etc.
If people would restrict their talking to a whispered "Hello", or a very
short whispered question and answer, I would agree with you.
But that's not what we "shushers" are complaining about. All too often
the conversations are so loud that it is difficult to hear the people
who are singing the songs. Why should this be? Why should the ones who
are trying desperately to hear the chazan and sing at the same speed and
key as the other singers, why should we be made to feel like we are
bothering the talkers?
> why can't women discuss their fashions, dresses and other similar
> matters and exchange ideas on them during Ayn Caylokaynu.
Good question. I'll answer it with another question: Why can't they have
this discussion *after* Ayn Caylokeinu? Especially if their shul has a
kiddush afterwards?
> Yes I know that sometimes the noice gets unbearable. That however is
> not a religious problem but an administrative problem. If during AYN
> KAYLOKAYNU people are talking too loudly the president (not the Rabbi)
> Should get up and ask people to quiet it a little (It should be an
> administrative request rather than a religious request)
I totally agree.
> My point is that synagogues provide BOTH a religious outlet and
> social outlet. I believe this is justified in the Jewish Law Books. I
> therefore believe that we should also encourage it in our personal
> lifes. To avoid acknowledgeing our social needs is improper and leads to
> people not coming to synagogue.
That depends on how you define "synagogue". If you mean the physical
structure, then the religious outlet is during any part of the service,
and the social outlet can be any other time. But if you equate
"synagogue" with "the services", then I would love to see you show
anywhere in any of the "Jewish Law Books" which condones conversations
about makeup during Ayn Caylokeinu. Yes, the women were praised for
making mirrors, but I doubt they made them during services.
Akiva Miller
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From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2007 06:50:43 -0500
Subject: Talking in Shul
> I believe the postings on speaking in shule have been inadequate. They
> neglect to mention that sometimes you can speak in shule. They ignore
> the reality that shules are SUPPOSE to provide social outlets. I in
> fact would encourage people to speak in shule at certain times. I give
> details and sources below.
The opening of Dr. Hendel's recent post about speaking in shul reminds
me of a related point. Yes, shuls are supposed to provide social
outlets, I agree. (Clearly not to the detriment of davening.)
Many of us live in communities where we only (or mostly) see our fellow
congregants (our social community) at davening. Weekday davening leaves
little time (or energy) for social palaver as we're rushing off to work
in the morning and / or rushing back home in the evening. Also, we may
not be davening with the same circle of friends that we see on Shabbos
as many people in multi-shul communities do not daven at their "Shabbos"
shul during the week due to scheduling issues. Even more-so for women
who mostly do not attend weekday davening.
Similarly, a trip to the store is in today's fast paced world solely to
purchase something -- not to schmooze with the merchant while purchasing
something. And in any case, the clerk behind the counter is a stranger
or someone who does not daven at our shul.
As a result there are many people we only see on Shabbos -- creating
great pressure to be social (aka "talk") Although the proper time for
this might be after davening at kiddish, that's two to three hours away.
As a mini- case in point -- I worked at a firm that had a mincha minyan.
There was always small talk as we waited for the appointed davening
time. No one (by my observation) talked with people who worked in their
own office -- people primarily "caught up with" people who worked
elsewhere in the firm and thus whom we only saw at mincha.
This is not meant as an excuse or a permission for talking during
davening -- only an observation of why it may be so rampant in those
shuls where it is socially acceptable. (The halachic acceptability of
talking during davening is not a matter of local "taste.")
Carl
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From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 10:02:19 +0000
Subject: Talking in Shul
On Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:30:03 -0500, Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
wrote:
> The way I understand it it is prohibited to talk FROM the prayers
> Baruch Sheamar till after the completion of the recitation of the 18
> blessings (and similarly during the Musaf prayer) ANY OTHER TIME IT IS
> PERMITTED (except during the reading of the Torah and Haftorah).
> Using this let me show some times where I would encourage talking.
I find the use of the word PERMITTED disturbing, it is at best not
prohibited. In consequence I would never encourage talking during
davenning. IMHO it should be restricted to welcoming visitors and
finding them a seat or asking a neighbour to explain, for example, a
difficulty in the sedra which has suddenly struck one (at such limited
times).
> After Musaf on Saturday we traditionally sing AYN CAYLOKAYNU, ALAYNU,
> ANIM ZEMIROTH, and ADON OLAM. My own opinion is that these songs were
> introduced because people were packing up after davening and they
> provide background music which give a proper mood of praise to God
> while people are leaving. I don't advocate not saying them. But I
> think it an appropriate time to do socialization...including asking
> people how they are doing, inviting them over, getting tips and
> contacts etc.
Can't this wait the extra five minutes until davenning is over?
> Some people object to this as follows: There are vague prohibitions of
> "idle chatter" in the synagogue because it is a house of worship. I am
> not certain what idle chatter is.
The Shulchan Arukh, Orach Chaim 131.1 states that "One may not conduct
oneself in a light headed manner, such as joking, wandering around or
inconsequential chatter, in synagogues and batei midrashot." This
applies even when they are otherwise empty and is quite apart from any
prohibition arising from interruptions in davenning.
> Similarly in between aliyoth there is no prohibition of talking. I
> think it a good time to shmooze about the Parshah and its
> relevance. Perhaps discuss the latest current events, politics and see
> if the Parshah can help.
I am sorry to have to contradict Russell but the Shulchan Arukh, Orach
Chaim 146.2 states quite clearly "Once the reader has begun to read from
the Sefer Torah, it is forbidden to talk, even to discuss Torah matters,
EVEN between aliyot." The LOR should be asked whether this applies to
the interminable Mishebeirachs said in some shuls.
The only difference between Kriat Hatorah and Chazarat Hashats in this
respect is that the Shulchan Arukh, Orach Chaim 144.4 describes talking
during the latter as "His sin is greater than he can bear" and adds that
"one should admonish him", presumably allowing him to be publicly
embarrassed only in that particular case.
Martin Stern
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From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2007 21:52:39 -0500
Subject: Talking in Shul
From: Joshua Goldmeier <Josh@...>
> The halachot of talking during tefillah, and respect for shule. Now,
> the fact is that despite all the quotes people have brought down
> prior, those are all mussar - which are beautiful, but not halacha
The halachos of Kavod Beis Hakeneses are in the same Shulchan Aruch that
tells you when
"there ARE times and places in the tefillah where talking IS permissible
(not preferable, just allowed)"
so I am not sure on what basis you call the one Mussar and the other
Halacha.
> The word haftorah itself means "a break/pause".
No, it means the end, the end of the Kerias haTorah, as in "Ein maftirin
achar hapesach afikoman" No seventh aliyas stretch here.
> We've turned the haftora into this great aliyah, but it's really a
> consolation prize for the maftir aliyah
Close, but not exactly. The consolation prize is davening Musaf for the
amud which is in compensation for the lesser aliya of maftir/haftorah.
Maftir is a requirement for the one who gets the haftora.
> Look in a Mishne Berurah - there are places in the tefilla where you
> are allowed to talk.
For a reason. Shmoozing is always asur in a Beis Hakeneses, during,
before and after davening.
> We need to remember that the concept of shule was twofold when it
> started and developed throughout history. The first is a makom
> tefillah to replace the korbanos
Stop. That is what it was supposed to be, what Hashem Himself calls
Mikdash Me'at.
> The second is a gathering place on shabbat, where the Jews who all
> week worked with the goyim, had a place to gather as yidden, with
> other yidden. They could daven, learn, catch-up with each other in a
> setting that was not "goyish" or with goyim>>
This is how the "shteebl" evolved. You are elevating a very much
bedi'avad function against which generations of rabbonim have railed,
into a primary purpose. Which, of course, doesn't make it so. (Except
of course for the davening and learning part)
From: Eitan Fiorino <AFiorino@...>
> A shul is NOT the beit hamikdash
See above; the Ribbono Shel Olom Himself clearly disagrees. Balance
snipped for irrelevance.
> Second, if a Medieval monarch would have someone executed for talking
> out of turn in his or her presence, I hardly think we ought to endorse
> that as a good role model and example for how God ought to behave!
I don't recall God asking for advice from any of us how to behave. He
is a lot more likely to give us advice on how to behave, and he has, by
calling the Batei Kenesios uVatei Midrashos Mikdash Me'at.
In any event, risking the loss of one's head is not the same as yir'as
Shamayim; the analogy to a king (which has long long ancestry, as in
malchusa de'ar'ah ke'ein Malchusa de'Rakia) is intended to instill
yir'ah, properly defined as awe, not fear of the loss of one's head.
Gershon
<gershon.dubin@...>
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End of Volume 54 Issue 6
